You are unfortunately right about our inability to force anything upon mothers. The sad fact is that while we can legislate a drinking, voting, and working age – we are unable to control who has children in this country (as a libertarian I wouldn’t change that if I could, but it’s still a sad state) and so women who are addicts or immature are still able to get pregnant as soon as they are biologically ready. I think the unwillingness you speak of in part stems from the lack of respect for this act of nature that has partly been brought on by the spread of abortion and the removing of consequence from action.

As for your final question, I would answer that yes it is – if it’s intentional. In my defense of life if abortion was recognized as murder, then a women who abused drugs and caused the death of that child would be guilty in my mind. I imagine it would be near impossible to prove for poor nutrition and exertion so it would remain to see how a law could define what that would look like – but yes.

I’ll leave this discussion by stating that you sound like someone who would be willing to allow legislation given certain allowances for abortion as you’ve stated in your comments here. And that really is what I can appeal to now for our country. I am most dismayed by pro-abortion supporters that oppose eliminating late-term abortions or partial-birth abortions, or even parental consent and are not willing to concede anything in legislation. These are the folks that I believe are more committed to some blind devotion to women’s rights than what is intrinsically and morally obvious.

Thanks again for the talk.
-Mark

Likewise I appreciate the civil conversation about this very important topic. I get so frustrated with people who, once they find out your opinion differs from theirs, go instantly to demonizing instead of listening to the opposing viewpoint. It’s a bad problem in this country, on both sides of every issue. But that’s another soapbox entirely …

To answer your fundamental question – is abortion taking a life. In a word, yes. But I disagree with your assertion that it is therefore murder. I also disagree with the moral equivalencies you draw to criminal acts, and in both disagreements my reasoning is that abortion is a unique issue, and it can’t be compared or grouped with other actions, including murder. It has to be considered separately, in and of itself.

A fetus in the early stage of embryonic development is inextricably linked to the health of the mother. Its ability to thrive is based 100% on the mother. Hard core Pro-Choice people (there are varying degrees, as there are in the Pro-Life movement) would callously and wrongfully compare the relationship to a parasite and its host. I don’t agree with that assessment, because as I said, it cannot be compared to any other act or relationship, and because a parasite can never live without its host and obviously a child will have that ability after 9 months.

That said, the mother’s well being must be included in the equation when considering the morality and legality of abortion (which are two very different arguments!) thus her ability to carry the pregnancy to term is an important factor. As is the human factor of her willingness to do so. If she’s not willing to do what it takes to nurture the child by not doing drugs, taking in the proper nutrition, proper medical care, etc., and legally you can’t force her to do those things, that baby’s chances aren’t good anyway. It’s not an excuse or a rationalization – it’s a statement of fact. By the way, the unwillingness isn’t always a choice – mental illness and addiction are epidemics in this country right now, and play a very large role in a mother’s ability to carry a child. Of all of the physical ailments I suffered when I was pregnant, the one that most endangered my life and my daughter’s was the depression that came afterwards.

A final thought to consider: if abortion is murder, is a miscarriage therefore an act of negligent homicide? What if it’s caused by poor nutrition, or drug use, or overexertion?

I look forward to your response.
Brenda

I said I believe a majority of abortions are of convenience. I said 99% of pregnancies are avoidable – meaning, don’t have sex and you won’t get pregnant. Simplistic thinking, I know – but it is undeniable that pregnancy is a choice. The 1% would be for the unfortunate pregnancies from rape (and I have no idea if that percentage is correct – I imagine 1% is actually too high).

And I do have a child – and she was born 5 weeks premature with complications and spent a couple weeks in nicu and was a “forced” c-section due to the complications, and we didn’t have good insurance, and my wife’s employer wasn’t flexible and she lost her job. And we ended up having to pay around $30,000+ in hospital bills. We didn’t have the money, we had to make arrangements with doctors and hospitals. We also, because of her job loss and other financial burdens had to sell our home at a great loss. But you survive and make payments, and get help from grandparents and friends, and make it work. There is always a way that a baby and family (or even single mom) can make it work in this world. It’s fallacious to say that carrying to term is guaranteed to lead to situations you described.

But you are side-stepping the question we are really discussing – is this taking a life? Which most of us classify as murder. So, though you are not in “favor” of it, you like to have it as an option for certain situations. But if you believe it is murder, as I and other pro-lifers do, then that is the same as saying I am against people randomly being shot dead in the street… however, if they really really need the money found in that persons wallet to make their life not so tough, then it’s ok. That may seem outlandish of a comparison, but that is the moral equivalent. So while I may agree that pregnancies CAN lead to physical, emotional and great financial pain – I won’t protect against that possibility by sacrificing an innocent life.

If you however don’t believe abortion is taking a life, and just happen to not favor it for other reasons, then my argument will be uncompelling to you. But then I would be interested to see what the reasoning is behind you not being in favor of them.

Thanks for engaging in the discussion. While I am obviously strongly opinionated I appreciate your thoughts – even if I disagree.

-Mark

For the record, I have two children. Both pregnancies were high risk and very scary, and the second time I experienced severe post-partum depression, so I feel I have some room to speak about the physical, emotional and mental toll pregnancy can have on a woman. Thankfully, those pregnancies were also in the context of a loving marriage, a supportive family, health insurance that allowed me access to great doctors and hospitals, financial stability, and a flexible employer who allowed me to take time off when I needed it. It was because of that context that I was able to carry both pregnancies to term without ramifications for both me and my kids.

Not every woman gets pregnant in that context. As I said, I am not in favor of abortion. I am in favor of abortion remaining a legal option for women whose situations or conditions render them unable to physically, emotionally or mentally carry a pregnancy to term without destroying their own lives and the lives of the children.

I agree that there are far too many instances where abortion is tragically misused, when it is a despicably selfish choice on the part of the mother. My prayer is that proper counseling will lead those women to adoption, in fact I pray that every pregnant woman can extracate herself from a bad situation for the sake of the child she carries. But until that day happens, which I believe can only happen through agencies such as Planned Parenthood or the many outreach programs, as well as government safety nets, I will not throw under the bus the woman for whom that is an impossible feat.

The PETA connection assumes animals are inherently the same as humans – I don’t believe they are – but I also do believe in treating animals well if we can.

Bombing abortion clinics (if you know someone is inside) is reprehensible and I would not support – and that would be a closer equivalent. I think the debate of unjust wars is beyond us (or at least myself). I certainly don’t believe that we chose Iraq out of a hat and went and had the direct purpose of killing innocent people – so to compare to abortion is, again, not equal.

If you’re question was more pedantic and wanting to get into the semantics of the term “life” like I did choice, then I’m fine to call myself pro-”not killing innocent and defenseless un-born children” to make distinction against your other points more clear.